Podcast with Matt Tanner

Host: Beau Billington

Beau  00:08

So hello, everybody. Welcome to Finding that Next Gear. I’ve got Matt Tanner, founder of Same Page. Matt, thanks for joining the show.

 

Matt  00:14

Excited, man. Thanks for having me.

 

Beau  00:16

Yeah, absolutely. So let’s dig in here. So tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do. Have you been an entrepreneur? I’ll start there.

 

Matt  00:24

It’s hard to even think of myself as that. But I guess I technically am. So officially, the date would be April 1st of 2020. We can get into why that’s the date, but I was kind of pushed into this thing. So about a year and a half.

 

Beau  00:40

Nice, nice. And so what do you actually do in Same page?

 

Matt  00:43

Alright, so Same Page, if I meet at a dinner party, and I don’t really want to talk to anybody, I just say we’re an HR Consulting. And that usually people just kind of walk away because no one wants to hear about that. But for those that are in the know, we are fractional HR. So we provide HR for businesses that don’t yet have an HR department. That’s like the very simple way to put it.

 

Beau  01:07

Yeah, I think you brought the sexy back to HR. 

 

Matt  01:10

Yeah, that’s the goal, we do like to say that it’s approachable HR. Because a lot of people are kind of scared by that. And we try to bring, like a human element, even though the word human is an HR, a lot of people forget that. So that’s how we try to do it.

 

Beau  01:24

So HR, is kind of, you mentioned April 21st the date. We’ll talk about that in a second. But have you always been passionate about the HR space? And how’d you get into this?

 

Matt  01:33

Yeah, I was talking about this with somebody recently, I don’t think anybody when they’re in kindergarten is like, I want to grow up and get into HR. I don’t know if I had a passion for that anytime I kind of fell into it. But I am passionate about parts of it. And I think that’s important. 

 

Way back when I was a consultant, Six Sigma Black Belt process Improvement Consulting, and I got to do a little bit of training in that. And I really scratched the niche of like, “Oh, I like this learning development piece, maybe I’ll be a trainer” and I went back to school and got this degree in HR with this vision of being doing some training. 

 

And then, as soon as I finished that degree, some good friends of mine were starting a business here in Atlanta called Kingdom Ops. And I reached out to them and said, “Hey, do you need some HR help?” And they’re like, we have two employees. And we’re brothers. So we don’t need any HR help. But you can work here. And so I joined them and started off doing just all kinds of random things.

 

But eventually, over seven years, we grew that to a couple 100 employees, and I got to run HR for that company. And that’s when it really hit me like, “Oh, there’s a lot of pieces to what we think of as HR.” It’s really about building cultures. And it’s the people’s thought, even these days, why people just call it People Operations. So yeah, I’m passionate about just getting into the nuts and bolts of a business and people strategy and things like that. So that’s how I kind of stumbled into it.

 

Beau  02:58

There’s a lot of nuances  in HR, it’s a hell of a lot more complex. And frankly, it’s one of the areas which I personally don’t want to touch, right? And so you mentioned fractions in which you guys do not want to get to that a second ago, but it makes a lot of sense to me and companies that are kind of my size. But even larger, upwards of probably 25-30 million, I imagine would be a target market. But for the people listening, what the heck is fractional HR? I mean, what do you guys actually do?

 

Matt  03:23

We actually, my business partner and I, we kind of debate while we discuss if we should even use that term. So she may have slapped me on the wrist, but like originally, when I think of fractional HR, or you may be more familiar, like a fractional controller, it’s somebody that comes in and serves as the head of HR and a fractional basis. 

 

Maybe they do that for five or six companies. And so the benefit of the company is they pay less than a full time person, but they get a full time person’s experience. They just don’t get them all the time. And so, you see this with marketing, a lot of other things. And so when I started my business, I was really just a consultant, I really didn’t have a business, it was just me, spread out amongst three or four companies. And so I use that term interchangeably with what we do now. 

 

Although in reality, what we do now is we’re placing it still, I guess, on a fractional basis, but we’re placing what we call a people person with a business, kind of like an HR generalist, and they would handle a handful of clients. So that’s what I think of when I think of Fractional to somebody that’s dedicated to a handful of businesses. So they get the variety and then the business gets the benefit of somebody with a lot of experience that is willing to work on a part time basis for multiple people.

 

Beau  04:45

So essentially, is it all about kind of providing access to talent that maybe these companies wouldn’t have? The ability to attract, reach or otherwise have access to?

 

Matt  04:54

That’s a big part of it. One of our selling points is like, you’re gonna get somebody with a lot of experience. We don’t frame it exactly this way, but they probably couldn’t afford to hire because this person’s got,

 

Beau  05:04

Don’t be bashful about that and  that’s my business, it’s typically couldn’t afford this person, annually. So let’s get into you on a fractional basis. 

 

Matt  05:12

Yeah, and we think your size, you probably don’t need a person annually like they can handle it in a fraction of a week. And so that makes sense. It’s also just easier as you know, like hiring and then if it doesn’t work out, exiting, like that’s expensive time consuming stuff. So we’re pretty turnkey for onboarding. 

 

And then when you’re done, if you want to get out, you can get out pretty easily. So there’s a lot of benefits to going that route instead of the old. I mean, this is your world, post a job, and I’m a head of HR. That’s a hard thing to do. And if you get it wrong, what an expensive mistake. So a lot of people like that benefit of it, too. They’re like, you’ll have a great experience. Let’s try it and see how it works.

 

Beau  05:51

You hinder the entirety of the HR function from hiring, firing, to onboarding, exit interviews, as well as maybe like workers comp, but that comes up?

 

Matt  06:00

Pretty much everything except the act of actually recruiting because that’s such a specific, niche thing, that’s also very time consuming. And there’s a lot of folks that are really, really good at it. It’s not our expertise. So we like to say, from the moment someone is hired until they leave the company. That’s how we’ll handle it. We’ve got like, all over our website, all kinds of specific bullet points of the things we do. But that’s the simplest way to put it. We don’t recruit. We’d learned that the hard way. We tried that a little bit early on. 

 

Beau  06:31

I’m the inverse, we do the recruiting component, but HR to me is a nightmare. And something I want to stay away from at all costs.

 

Matt  06:38

Yeah, we’re gonna work together on some of these. But yeah, that’s one thing we don’t do.

 

Beau  06:42

Yeah. So what’s your sweet spot? Are you guys industry agnostic? Do you have a focus on employee size? What really was your target? What was a perfect customer for you?

 

Matt  06:52

Yeah, perfect customer, it’s usually like 200 employees or less that it may be in the high end, but like 200 or less employees, and the business is growing. And this is sometimes harder to find, but that they actually care about the people and the culture. It’s not just like, we got to have HR. So we look at, we’re pretty much industry agnostic, we have a roster of super talented folks that have different expertise. 

 

So if we’re chatting with a tech company, we’ll find someone that’s got experience in that field, chatting with an industrial company, we may look at a different person for that. So pretty much industry agnostic. Under 200 employees, because when you get up that size, you probably then do need it, it’s about spending time for a person. And so that’s important. That’s a big thing for us. 

 

Beau  07:39

So it’s funny, you mentioned where to come in to actually care about their people. And now it’s like, every single company touts that they really do care. And I don’t know what the stat is, but I would say, by a large majority actually do not. It’s all about profitability and revenue. And that’s generally off the backs of the personnel.

 

Matt  07:58

Yeah, and for HR, I can snip this out pretty early, somebody reaches out to us, and they’re just looking for compliance. They say things like, I just don’t want to go to jail. And that’s a part of what we provide. It’s like, there’s a lot of this HR stuff you got to do, that we can help you with. But if that’s the only thing you care about, there are just far cheaper solutions out there. 

 

There’s software. There’s companies that I think, I mean, there’s go do like a PEO. We can talk about how we differ from that. But if that’s all you’re looking for, that’s not a great fit for us. And I think we’ve differentiated ourselves pretty well. If you go out and Google, like HR consultants, a lot of the websites. First of all, they’re really dated and look really bad, but they’re just plastered with things like, don’t use Google for your HR rules, like will keep you out of jail. It’s very scare tactic stuff like, and I guess that probably works to a degree. But that’s not our main focus, we’ll keep you out of trouble. 

 

But we want to do things like what is your growth strategy for the next couple of years? Like what’s your performance management process? So we try to go beyond just keeping you out of jail. That’s like table stakes I think.

 

Beau  09:12

Yeah, the boutique offering, the strategic partners pertaining to your HR needs, right? Now what? You want to write that one down?

 

Matt  09:20

Yeah, that’s a good one. Because there’s cheaper options out there, there’s different ways to do it. And so sometimes we kind of direct people to that.

 

Beau  09:29

I think part of being an entrepreneur is knowing who’s a good client and who’s not. And I have the same discussions where I no longer negotiate on price. And if somebody the first thing I want to talk about is price and T’s and C’s and all this jazz, and generally, they’re not the right partner, because I want to talk about what are we trying? What’s the end goal? If that’s what we really care about, then the pricing discussion and the deliverable. It’s a different dialogue.

 

Matt  09:54

There’s a software out there, I won’t name it because I guess I will attend any competitor but they advertise like you get a dedicated HR person for $99 a month. And I had somebody ask me recently, why would I mean, we are quite a bit more than that. I had somebody ask me, why wouldn’t I just go with this thing? And I said, please go with that. And let me know, I’d love to know what you get for $99 a month. 

 

And we actually went to the process of pretending that we registered in that business to find out how they work, and their dedicated HR person has anywhere, has 100 clients, I’m just I don’t think you could actually be dedicated to 100 clients. So that’s how that model works. And I guess that works for them. I’m not disparaging it, I’m sure it’s very successful, but just a different mindset.

 

Beau  10:43

Different mindset, different customer base as well, right? 

 

Matt  10:45

For sure. 

 

Beau  10:46

So what do you actually do for the company? Are you still providing HR services yourself? Are you more so kind of an overlay and managing such a strategic vision direction? And just to kind of remove obstacles for your HR folks?

 

Matt  11:01

Yeah, it’s a great question that I’m sure you probably dig into with all your guests on this. Because when I started, I tried to, the adage like work on the business, not in the business, trying to do more than that.

 

Beau  11:10

Act no stocky, right? 

 

Matt  11:13

Yeah. I never knew who to attribute that to. Yeah. So I’m trying to do more of that. A big breakthrough was bringing on a business partner. So I’ve known for a long time, and we really are currently splitting the work up into, I handle most of the operations and she handles most of the sales and marketing. And so in our size, yes, I am still somewhat customer facing on HR issues, like we’ve got dedicated, we call them a people person that we place. But if they need to escalate something, or if they’re not sure, that generally comes to me. I think somewhere down the road, we’ll have somebody else filling that role. But for now, yeah, I am still doing a mix of working on the business and in the business stuff. 

 

And I like that, but we’ll see how that changes. It’s definitely less like I said that when I started, I was walking around calling myself an entrepreneur saying I had a business. And really, I just felt

 

Beau  12:05

Feel like a glorified consultant, right? 

 

Matt  12:09

Yeah, I created like an 80 hour week job for myself, which was fine, but it wasn’t a business. It was just me completely, customer facing at all times.

 

Beau  12:16

 It’s part of the rite of passage, though, as an entrepreneur, I did the same thing four and a half years, 4.8 years precisely through this journey. I’m still working in the business and trying to pry myself out of it to work more on it. 

 

And I’ve kind of come to a realization that I think it’s just going to be a hybrid role indefinitely. The second you get too far removed from your clients, things fall through the cracks. But if you’re too involved, then you’re not going to be able to have kind of a vision and an eye on what’s next and continue to grow your actual business. So is it something extra? Sure. 

 

Matt  12:48

Yeah. 

 

Beau  12:49

So how did you determine the need for the service? Right. I mean, you mentioned I think the date was April 21st 2020. We’ll get there in one moment. But how do you determine the need? Was this a hunch, right? How did Product Market Fit actually work?

 

Matt  13:00

I’m not that smart. So I was a COVID Lay off. When I left King Ops, I went to a MailChimp company called MailChimp. I worked there for a couple years, loved its great company now acquired by Intuit like billion dollars. 

 

And I left MailChimp in January of 2020. Think back to what was going on then join a company called Full Story, which I love. And COVID hit and they kind of freaked out and had a massive layoff. I was one of the newer folks in one of the first ones out.

 

Beau  13:32

First in first out, yep. 

 

Matt  13:34

First, they then were a client for a period of time for me. So that actually worked out great. And but when I left that company in April, I just kind of I mean, it’s high, the pandemic, the whole world’s freaking out. I don’t know what’s going on. I just took a couple of weeks. And then I started emailing everybody I’ve ever worked with, like, Hey, do you need some help? I thought back of my mind, maybe I’d do my own thing. 

 

But I was thinking like 10 or 20 years down the road. I was very much a company man, comfortable in that WTO world. And so I started emailing folks on worked with and I think people just kind of had a few opportunities to do some stuff for MailChimp for a couple of past employers, and then Full Story called me and said, “Hey, I have this, (my old boss at FullStory) I have this friend that has a small business.” And I just pitched to him as if I had this actual business and he’s like, let’s do it. 

 

And so then, within a couple weeks, I was like crap,I guess I’m doing this. So I was very much pushed into it. There was no marked one page Dziedzic plan yet, no product market fit, let’s just say, “hey, do you need HR help? I think I can do that for you.” 

 

And that was great. He referred me to another and it kind of snowballed from there. And then I had to take a break and be like, well, I actually took on one too many clients. And my work started suffering and I had to fire that client before they fired me. 

 

So I realized then like wow, this is not hard. I realized I was kind of over promising what I could deliver. But the encouraging part was there must be a market fit here, because everybody I talked to is interested. So I either need to charge more or do something differently. But that was the extent of the research. So we’re continuing to hone it. And I had multiple pivots. Pretty happy with where we are now. But yeah, that’s it was very much by the seat of my pants.

 

Beau  15:26

Totally organic. It’s funny, I’ve had a couple of conversations with other founders, we’re the same thing. They’re laid off, they leave whatever the impetus was, they are out and they basically just start consulting. And then this is going well, and it’s funny how good work can parlay itself into more opportunity. And so they did a good thing, a good job here. He also introduced them to other clients. So they started thinking that there actually is a business model here. And then they hired somebody, and then naturally, the business expanded from there. And it sounds like you’re on the same path, which is great.

 

Matt  15:56

Yeah, I give a lot of credit. So my boss at full story, who worked for Laszlo Bock at Google, who’s like the only person I know, that’s actually kind of famous in HR. That’s why I went to Full Story, which I think she felt so bad about. I mean, when she laid me off, unless she felt really bad about it. She called me a couple weeks later about this friend of hers that had this small business in Atlanta. And I, that was really the push I was interviewing at the time for another job. If I had not gotten that one first client that like, monthly rate, he’s like, Do you have a W nine? I’m like, let me go form an LLC.

 

Beau  16:36

A second. Yeah, that can be done.

 

Matt  16:39

I spent the $125 or whatever it is to start an LLC. I was like, Holy crap, I think I’m doing this and then get that first check from him. And I’m like, wow, I think that made it real to me. I’m a little, maybe it was imposter syndrome. Maybe it’s risk averse. But that was a push, I needed to be like, let me go make a website this weekend, and like, have an actual business. And so things from there, just take one. And then you kind of feel like wow, this might be real. And like you said, referred to so I give her even though she laid me off a lot of credit for shoving me into this. And the rest is history.

 

Beau  17:12

That’s awesome. So the defining moment for you is really that first paycheck and the conversation where it’s like, Hey, I’m actually going to kind of close an opportunity here and begin working for somebody working with somebody.

 

Matt  17:22

And then, I walked into his building on the first day, just terrified, what am I just agreeing to do? I’m used to just going into work and having a boss and then after a few days, realizing, wow, I’m actually providing value here. This is the thing that could work. So yeah, it was I’ll never forget that it was kind of the moment they pushed me into this. And yeah, give her credit.

 

Beau  17:46

Yeah, so I’ve actually got the first dollar ever made back here. And so yeah, big deal. How long did that take? It took me literally, I think it was like seven or eight months. Yes, seriously, before I had my first client and my wife. Sleepless nights, really kind of asked me what was gonna happen? And of course, I didn’t have a definitive response. Because you don’t know. It’s sales, right? I mean, you’re out there hustling?

 

Matt  18:14

Yeah, so mine’s a little different. This is more kind of luck, I was laid off. And then I took a couple of weeks, I got some really good advice. I was just calling anybody I knew, getting connected to all kinds of people. And some of the best advice I got was like, Hey, this is a crazy time, like the world is shutting down, right and take a week off. 

 

Don’t do any networking stuff, just watch movies, relax, when you hang out with your kids. I did that for like a week and then kind of fired back up the interview process. And then my old boss called me, and I reached out. And so it was really like, three or four weeks, it was very fast. 

 

But it was different from you and that I didn’t like to create a business and then tell my wife, I’m going to go sell this thing. I never even thought about it. She just called me and said, Hey, why don’t you do this? That client called me. We had a meeting and I remember being on the phone. I had an interview later that day for a job. And he’s like, so do you do this like your business? And I’m thinking about kind of? Yes, I mean, I kind of stammered through that. 

 

And so I didn’t have that, I was fortunate in that I didn’t have that. Here’s my business plan. Here’s my website. Now let’s go sell it. I did it the reverse way. Somebody reached out. I kind of fell into that now. So that was kind of like lightning in a bottle. Very fortunate. I will say when we pivoted away from me doing all the work, the new branding new website had this grand plan of like, let’s place people/person. 

 

So when we did that reset, that was three month before we got our first client and that was sleepless nights. I’m like, does this pivot make sense? What have I done? I was doing fine. As a consultant, I made a huge mistake. And so that was stressful. But that first one was very random, very fortunate. 

 

Beau  19:54

Well, I think it’s a rite of passage. It’s funny I wrote down when you’re talking about the reluctant entrepreneur like I feel like that makes you. It’s like, Oh, you’re here, it happened. It kind of happened by accident organically, it has been a perfect storm of activity to get you where you are, which is great. 

 

In regards to the sleepless nights and the pivot, yeah, I’ve done that as well. I did this recently where I raised prices, how to fire some clients. And basically, just make sure that the business that we took on was the business that we should be taking on, start saying no to stuff that was made on the peripheral, or you’re not in our wheelhouse. And yeah, that’s tough and you feel vulnerable as well, because you made a decision and impacted your business, your livelihood, your family. And, yeah, it’s pretty tough until things come to fruition. 

 

And similar to you, it took me about three, four months. Now, about two to three months after doing that, I started having some tighter target clients come to fruition. And now I’m seeing that kind of cascade into more opportunity through referrals. And again, just in short, everything that we do is in our wheelhouse, so we provide good service and do good work.

 

Matt  20:59

I’m risk averse, I’m not gonna do anything crazy, like take out huge loans for this business. So the sleepless nights, I go back to I thought, when I worked at places like MailChimp and FullStory, I thought that was more secure. 

 

But then the COVID layoff really made me realize that it’s actually no more secure. I think this is stressful. Every month that goes by, I’m looking at my calendar over here. Every month that goes by, I get a little more comfortable calling myself an entrepreneur. For the first six months, I honestly thought it was just like something I would do until the pandemic was over. And then I go get a job. And then every month I mean, you probably can relate to this. I’m sure other folks you’ve talked to say it’s like, the longer you do it, you’re like, wait a minute, maybe this is what I’m doing. So I think reluctant entrepreneur is a good phrase. I like to call it a little easier.

 

Beau  21:53

But yeah, I call it old man strength. I’ve been in business for four and a half years. And it took about I think it’s like year three, alright, I’ve got a business. And I’ve also, I’m so far removed from corporate America that the thought of going back, really irked me.

 

Matt  22:05

This is funny, I’m not making this up. I had a dream last night that I took a job, like a normal job. And when I woke up it was like a nightmare. It was like, I was at the desk on the first day at like noon freaking out like what have I done? I have a boss telling me what to do again. It’s weird you bring that I had that dream last night? No, I think that was a sign that I’m on the right path because I woke up in a cold sweat.

 

Beau  22:33

Totally. So it sounds like there’s been a couple times we’ve thought about hanging it up. But now you ultimately, but now you’ve progressed through this kind of journey. You’ve validated the idea that you’re a good entrepreneur, or you’re getting there, I guess. And you’ve seen some growth. It sounds like you’re on the right track and getting the partner rebranding, as well as pivoting. I think those are all signs that kind of point to you’re on the right track versus just continuing to do the same thing over and over. 

 

Matt  23:05

I don’t know if you can relate to this or others. But I’ve been tempted. Every first client I got when I was just doing the consulting work. After like three or four months, I had three different clients say like, do you want to just come be our head of people, like I had three different job offers. And I think it does come a little bit earlier, I would have jumped on one of them. But they kind of got me. I’d been in it for about six months. I like the autonomy and the freedom of this life. And things are going pretty well. But I had three different offers. And I took that as a sign. Okay, we must be doing good work here. But it’s very, very tempting. A couple of them for sure. And so that temptation is fading more and more. Culminating with a nightmare last night about doing it. 

 

Beau  23:49

So no, totally that’s happened to me before. And my response is always you can’t afford me and not necessarily monetarily, but it’s like not a money would take to have the walk away from what I built. To then kind of report to somebody. It’s just a non-starter. Same worth conversation.

 

Matt  24:04

Yeah, it’s totally different. It’s a valid option for many people. And who knows. I mean, I could do that again someday, for sure. 

 

Beau  24:12

There’s no, I’m not crapping on anybody who wants to talk to me. It’s just not an option. Maybe the reluctant entrepreneur, who knows? Couple of questions, man. So let’s get a little bit tactically tactical here. Entrepreneurship. I think this is a great question. So what do you think is the number one trait of those entrepreneurs that actually find successes versus those that do not?

 

Matt  24:36

Number one trait that finds success versus do not? Alright, this might be a lame answer. And I’m not saying that I have this yet. I’m still working on this. But I realized that it is just discipline like I used to think entrepreneurship was like salesy magic and I think of like Richard Branson, or just like these super charismatic people that walk in the room, but I’ve learned this from the accent that I’ve got. 

 

Yeah, I mean,that’s work. He’s obviously a good entrepreneur. But I took this away from the entrepreneurs group that I’m in that you’re in ELA, like a lot of that stuff, none of it is rocket science. It’s like, we know what to do. It’s just discipline habits just doing it. Because let’s face it, when you’re working W2, we’re nine to five. If you want to call it that, you can, if you’re not feeling it for like a stretch, you can be like, I’m gonna go to work today. I’m gonna kind of close, like, the rest of this week or like Fridays. 

 

And you know, I’m not embarrassed to admit that I’ve done that we all have. I like to think that I did it less than a lot of people. But I certainly had times where I coasted and in this world, you just can’t do that. You have to just, I don’t love like hustle culture grind. I’m not saying that. It’s not like you have to do it 80 hours a week. But you just can’t, you have to just do the things you need to do, make the calls whatever it might be. So I think it’s just discipline, and I’m an inherently undisciplined person, but I’m good at building systems to keep myself disciplined. So I’ve got good processes in place. But I don’t know if that’s a lame answer, but I think I do.

 

Beau  26:24

So my response is perseverance, which is akin to discipline. So, I think that’s really what sets us apart is getting up every day, no matter what. And I agree with the hustle culture, although I feel like that’s part of the rite of passage with being an entrepreneur, you mentioned your 80 hour per week. I’ve had if you don’t do those, and yeah, frankly, you may not make it.

 

Matt  26:46

But if you’re doing that for four years, you’re like, what are you doing? Like, I’m not? Yeah, I think perseverance, grit and discipline. I think that’s what it is. But my point with that is, it doesn’t take a genius like I’m not, I’m in HR.

 

Beau  27:02

We’re gonna wake up every day. That’s what it is.

 

Matt  27:05

I love it. It’s really a simple thing, if you just kind of break it down and stuff and then just do this stuff. 

 

Beau  27:15

And I agree too about the coasting in Corporate America, but I think that the art in coasting is that you don’t know, people don’t know, you actually are doing it. I feel for too many people actually do and I’ve been guilty of it as well. You have a great month, kind of time to slow it down a little bit and recharge that.

 

Matt  27:33

I look back at some of the work I did in corporate America and my 20s. And I’m like, I don’t even know what I was doing. I was just embarrassed by the effort that I was putting in, and the quality of the work not every day. But it’s a thing that you can do more than you can do in this world. And I kind of like that I need that accountability in my life. I like that. I like that about it.

 

Beau  27:58

Yeah, me too. And also, I’ve found I’m a self starter. And I feel that’s a trait that’s needed in entrepreneurship. Because after all, if you’re not, you’re not gonna be doing anything, right. So you gotta have the perseverance to kind of get knocked down and get back up.

 

Matt  28:13

Yeah, just to actually do stuff, the thing that I’m most proud of is just calling folks when I got laid off, and just because I was in such a panic, like the world was shutting down, I had no income coming in, I was like, I got to do something. 

 

And so I just kind of was forced into just making calls and selling myself. But you know, how many times had I kind of toyed around with like, a business, when I was sitting in an office, I dabbled with, like a one page business plan or like, I’ve made a couple of like business pitch decks and stuff and, and made these like 20 page, business proposals, all that energy and effort on a thing that I was never actually going to do. Whereas, like you said, the self-starter part is, oh, maybe just like, pick up the phone and call people and see if they want to use this.

 

Beau  29:05

I mean, you don’t have the luxury of not doing that. Right. I mean, I can’t not call people, reach out to contacts and stay top of mind. I can’t afford to not.

 

Matt  29:16

Yeah, and I think that’s huge. And so, some people I think are just passionate and disciplined enough to just do that, while they’re working somewhere. You see, I worked at MailChimp. We had engineers start their own thing on the side and they just like, they crushed that they work all day and then they work on another thing. 

 

I guess maybe I wasn’t disciplined enough for that. It took getting laid off a pendant and took my safety net getting ripped out from under me to kind of shock me into that. So I don’t take a lot of credit for being this. I was kind of shoved off a cliff into it.

 

Beau  29:48

That was a good reminder that nothing is safe, just because you have a nine to five. 

 

So a few more questions. If you go back and give yourself advice, April 2020, prior to starting the company, would that be with that to not start a company to start a company, what would that look like?

 

Matt  30:06

I definitely wouldn’t do anything.  I am glad I started it, I would not tell myself not to do it. I’m very glad that I did it. I think I kind of always knew this, but I would have emphatically told myself, for me anyway, it was finding a business partner, it’s a lonely, lonely thing. And totally, I had that Inkling in the back of my mind, that’s not for everybody, I’m sure. 

 

But for me, that has unlocked a lot. We have a good working relationship, we’ve got a good kind of delineation of what we focus on. And that has just been a game changer for me. And it was about a year in. So I think I would have tried to do that sooner. If I can give myself one piece of advice. 

 

Beau  30:52

I love that. That’s kind of been the same conundrum myself where this is technically my second or third startup. I’ve tried both founders. And this one, I was like, alright I’m going to do it myself. But it does get lonely. Your view of the business gets very, very myopic, you kind of miss your gaps. And so I think it’s great to have somebody that you trust in the same situation as you and see, you can bounce ideas off of each other, rising tide, or small ships, or whatever they say, I think it’s important to have assistance.

 

Matt  31:22

I find myself motivated. We have our weekly meetings, and we’ve got our to do list and that has given me another level of accountability. Like just yesterday, I had like five or six things that I needed to knock out. And, my business partners looked at it, and I was excited to share the updates, like, Hey, I did all these things. I’m not sure. I wasn’t really feeling it yesterday, I’m not sure I would have done those things. 

 

If I didn’t have a business partner, if it’s just me sitting in my office, and so that’s one piece of it. But that’s the biggest thing for me, like everything else is rite of passage stuff like I told you, I took on that one too many clients and crashed and burned them. But I don’t think I would do that over because it was helpful. So that was probably the one piece of advice I would give myself. And that may not apply to everybody. But for me, it was important.

 

Beau  32:09

That’s great. All right, a few more questions, and then we’re out of here, man. So your favorite aspect of being your own boss?

 

Matt  32:16

I think it’s probably what everyone would say, like freedom and autonomy. Now freedom is a weird word. Like, I’ve got some freedom. But I also, like you said, I have freedom to take a day off if I want. But yeah, that’s a slippery slope. So but that is a part of it. 

 

But I think for me, as humans, we just accomplish stuff, I think. And so for me, my favorite part of being my own boss is I’m doing it not to get all misty here. But I didn’t do it for myself like before I was doing it for either my boss or the company. And I had some intrinsic motivation to grow in the company and do things, but I just, it’s about accomplishing something for myself and my family. This is pretty powerful. That I just love that. 

 

Beau  33:13

I totally agree. There’s no ceiling, right? I mean, you can with the future is kind of what you put in. And it’s really one of the most attractive propositions and you also mention, being able to take the freedom to be able to take time off. And I feel like that’s a big misnomer as well, though, because when I’m on vacation, I’m working. 

 

In fact, when I was in corporate America, when I was off, I was off, I didn’t need a laptop. And now I’m traveling with an iPad, at least, I’ve resigned myself to the fact that when I wake up, I will have coffee, I’ll be present with my family. But then I need 30 minutes to get through my stuff, to then be present for the next three, four hours and then rinser after lunch. 

 

And then again at six and it sucks. But the second that I realized that was my reality, that’s what I signed up for, it’s been a hell of a lot more palatable than having to work on an RFP, which is a true story when my wife was in the labor room to give birth to our first daughter never again.

 

Matt  34:08

So freedom is a tricky word like I just this book by Sebastian Younger called freedom and he talked it’s a short book, but he goes into some some history of folks on the frontier in the US, you have freedom to go live out the middle of the woods and not report to the government do whatever you wanted, you’re also likely to get mauled by a bear or killed by Native Americans and he talks about the different and then he goes into some of the the freedom that those tribes had and like we just throw freedom around all the time. You can have freedom very easily there’s

 

Beau  34:45

There’s an opportunity cost associated with set for.

 

Matt  34:48

Yeah, so it’s a great read, I highly recommend it but like, I’ve found that there’s freedom with this but there’s also freedom working in MailChimp like you’re free to walk down and get all the free food they have and get a paycheck with nice benefits for doing it plus work. So yeah, I think freedom is great. But that’s not always as awesome as it sounds. For me, it’s really just kind of fulfilling something for myself. That drives me to do this, I think.

 

Beau  35:22

Yeah, no makes sense. So the inverse of that question, what’s the least favorite part of being your own boss?

 

Matt  35:27

I think it’s probably the inverse of my answer. It’s just the uncertainty. Like I am probably the least likely entrepreneur out there. I’ve got checklists and spreadsheets for everything, I’ve got a weekly review that I do, I’ve got a daily log more than I do. I’m very structured and organized in my life. I think that’s what calms me down by putting structure on top of things that are chaotic, like life. 

 

And that just doesn’t always apply. I plan out my week. When I was in corporate America, I could plan out my week, and it would generally flow that way. But with a family of young kids, being an entrepreneur being an owner, then you just have to kind of let it go sometimes. And so that’s not my nature. But I agree. That’s the hardest part for me.

 

Beau  36:23

So you said that,  I’ll probably get booed for this. But I had a Calendly, Calendly link, the Superstar Atlanta Startup World, and I’ve gotten rid of it just because of the thought of somebody putting themselves on my calendar, right? Just doesn’t work for me any longer. 

 

Matt  36:38

Well, I used what I did. Speaking of a system, like I was getting all these kinds of calls and requests for connections, I have multiple Calendly links. One is for clients setting up their assessment, which is what I want them to do. 

 

But I’ve carved out two hours on Thursdays, like two to four. And there’s a Calendly link when someone asks me to meet up or to chat, I just say hey, I’d love to send them that. And then sometimes they write back like, hey, it looks like there’s only like Thursdays. I’m like, Yeah, that’s the design. That’s my and I mentally know like, alright, Thursday afternoons, that’s when I do my little connections that may be something exciting. Maybe not. So yeah,  it’s like any tool it can be.

 

Beau  37:19

I like that. I really wrote that down. I’m gonna have my VA work on that for me. Two more questions. Biggest success? Biggest failure?

 

Matt  37:32

Biggest failure in this experience was certainly taken on that fifth client; it was a group that I really respected. I met them and we had a great call. They had been talking to four competitors. And they went with us, with me. Like that afternoon, we just loved you and it was an absolute culture fit. 

 

But then like a month in, I’m like, I’m doing just not great work. And that was just so disheartening. I had to call them and say I’ve taken on too much. And I wrestled with that like am I just being lazy? Have I taken on too much? Am I doing or am I just tired? but it just disappointed them. And we’ve talked since and that was the biggest failure so far. I’m sure there’ll be others that just hurt like that. I don’t know. It just sucks to drop the ball. 

 

I think the biggest success, one of these, I’m super proud of our branding that we did, very early on we went and paid money that we didn’t really have for a really talented branding expert to get a website and logo and all that stuff. It can be just like when dressing. 

 

But for us, I think it really helped tell our story of what we’re trying to do and how we’re different. And I was just super proud of how it turned out. 

 

Beau  39:07

So it’s great, by the way.

 

Matt  39:10

Thanks. And I just love that the whole experience was great. Like she dug into it. She’s in branding, but she’s more of a business coach. She really dug in, like why are you doing this? Why do you have this business? Why would somebody go and it was a super powerful thing that opened up a lot of doors for us. So I’m proud I’m super proud. I don’t know if that qualifies as a success. It is in my mind. 

 

Beau  39:30

It is man, it’s a win. That’s a way to celebrate it, right? It’s a win. So I feel the same about how I spent a lot of time and money on my website, my presence and I get compliments and say hey, I love the messaging and love the branding. And when I look at my competitors, it blows my mind as to how poorly designed their websites are. And so no, I think that’s totally a success. And it’s a point of pride. So congratulations on that. 

 

Matt  39:52

Yeah, thanks. If you find somebody that’s good at it, they can help tell your actual story.  I’m not saying that it’s like tricking anybody but like It’s just a tiny website I think it actually imbues in portrays what we’re trying to do. 

 

Beau  40:06

Which is so, so difficult. I mean, that’s kind of the advice that I’d give myself, back to starting companies, branding and messaging is paramount. Just takes forever to figure out your what and why and what the hell do you do? 

 

Matt  40:21

Yeah, I made it with Squarespace and other things. These days, I made a really pretty website the weekend before I had a business and it looks fine. It was serviceable. And I would recommend doing that as you’re starting off, but if you’re serious about it, that’s what I think the best places to spend some money is doing getting that right.

 

Beau  40:41

Yeah, agreed. I think I’m on my fourth or fifth iteration. We’re about to do another one. And yeah, always keep moving. What’s the hardest part about having your own business? Last question? 

 

Matt  40:51

Hardest part, I think for me, with a family, the hardest part is setting some boundaries. And for myself, and knowing when to turn it off and when I work in my home. And so it’d be very easy to pull out the laptop or, I’m constantly taking email off my phone and then putting it back. 

 

So for me, it’s just remembering like, hey, the workday does end and your family is another side of that door. And whereas before pre entrepreneur, pre pandemic, the commute, hit the podcast, park the car, and we’re getting break. That’s harder, I’m trying the old, alright, take the dog for a walk. And that’s your commute, but I still struggle with it. I’d like to think that I’m good at it sometimes. But that for me is just turning it off. I mean, you just lay in bed thinking about it all the time. 

 

Beau  41:57

So it doesn’t get better. Let me break that. But I’ve done the same. I’ve got no notifications on my phone, except for text. Somebody really needs me, call me. But no email, just because there’s not a point where I check it enough where I can get to it and see what’s going on. Keep a good pulse. And I try to keep my phone off from 5:30 to 7:30 or eight o’clock. And then if something’s really pressing, then it’s just kind of again, my duty, I’ll plug in at 8:30 or so I try to stay home. And I think that’s important, especially when you work from home. And that’s no different from somebody that has their own firm or somebody that works for a corporation. I worked from home for 16 years. And it’s very hard to kind of not have the lines blurred between home and work. 

 

Matt  42:39

It’s tough. I said the second hardest part of being an entrepreneur is getting a home refinance, because they just did.

 

Beau  42:46

Yes, well, I think we could do another podcast on some of the challenges and tribulations that one, that somebody gets into because of the level of scrutiny that you get and you can be laid off. Fine.

 

Matt  43:00

I thought I saw I said, Hey, my last W2 was laid off. That’d be better than I can technically. That’s easier for us so that’s a little tongue in cheek but get your loans in order before we fly.

 

Beau  43:13

We fired fire to jump out of corporate America. Yeah. Tip number one. 

 

Matt Tanner,  how can we reach you if people want to reach you or learn more about the Same Page? How can they get in touch with you?

 

Matt  43:24

You can google Same Page usually comes up but Same Page HR is the website and all our stuff on there. So I don’t use Twitter, Instagram. We’ve got a great newsletter on there. Subscribe to that. But yeah, same page HR.

 

Beau  43:39

Awesome, man. Hey, it’s been a real pleasure. Really appreciate you coming on that. Thanks for your time. Thanks for sharing your story. I love what you guys are doing. 

 

Beau  43:47

It was fun. Thanks, man. 

 

Beau  43:48

You got it.